Northview MB Church: Where are your men?

Okay, okay…I’ll have to set this up a bit.  That question is very confusing.

For starters, I really like Northview Community Church in Abbotsford.

I have many friends who go, or have gone, there.  A lot of good stuff has come from Northview, and I’ve been an enjoyer of their Roaring Twenties C&C group in years past (and by the name, some will know just how long ago that was…).  I appreciate that they’ve tried to take an educated position on the volatile issue of women in ministry.  I appreciate that they’re attempting to train up their men.  I love that they have a bookstore and are trying to cultivate a love of reading good books in their church.  I love that they have a pastor who is an expositor, and I’m very pleased at the positive stuff going on at Northview.

I’m theologically in some slightly different categories than Northview, but have little of serious significance to complain about regarding Northview MB Church.

The way I understand things is that Northview has an excellent women’s ministry, which includes things like a spa night for women with special needs kids, a great mother’s mentoring program, a prayer ministry, a sexual discipleship program (?!? Confused ?!?), a conference ministry, and many other various components.  From what I can gather, it seems that the women’s main weekly teaching/discipleship component of their ministry is called Oasis, which comes in a morning and evening flavour, depending on schedules.

In the morning Oasis program, here is their fall program description.

Now, at the risk of never being welcome in the MB Conference anywhere, I have to admit that I was actually surprised when I learned about this from Menno-Lite, because in the morning Oasis program, Northview is teaching through an introduction to Listening Prayer by Lorrie Martin entitled “Invited”.  Lorrie is a Spiritual Director at the Mark Centre in Abbotsford, which is basically a spiritual retreat centre (read – “Haven for people who though Keith Green was a better theologian than musician…”).  She’s a disciple and co-worker of Brad Jersak, who I’ve already written a bunch about.

In the PDF announcing the fall plan for Oasis, there’s the following blurb:

OASIS CLASSES – SEPTEMBER TO DECEMBER 2010

LISTENING PRAYER – Cost $22 for Book Invited by Lorie Martin

Listening prayer is about communing with God, hearing the voice of the One who loves us, saved us and who
desires to come alongside us and speak in to every aspect of our lives.

John 10:2-5, 14-15 says…….
The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the
sheep listen to his voice. He calls his sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brough
he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow because they know his voice. But they will never follow a
stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognise a stranger’s voice

Brad Jersak in his book Can you hear me says of this scripture: “The Lord is making a point here about his voice: He has one. He uses it. He speaks. His sheep – those who have ears to listen – hear it, know it and follow it.”

The Lord speaks to us in many ways – in quietness, in community, in nature, in scripture, a sermon, in worship, through a friend to name but a few. Whether you are new to listening prayer or a “ seasoned listener” join us as we are invited and guided by Lorie Martin using her wonderful book of prayer exercises for solitude and community where we will learn together to hear the voice of the Lord and apply it to our lives.

Uh…Yikes.

Now, I’ve written a bit on Brad Jersak and on the whole concept of Listening PrayerListening Prayer is kinda like a Butterfly – The name has nothing to do with what it really is.  Butterflies are not houseflies covered in butter; they’re neither butter, nor flies.

Listening Prayer involves neither listening to God, nor prayer.  Listening Prayer is a synonym for Prophecy, and not the kind of prophecy modeled in the Old or New Testaments.  It’s not even the kind of prophecy espoused by Wayne Grudem.  It’s the kind of forbidden “prophecy” performed by the Witch of Endor.

WHAT?  Well, I’m serious.  Consider the following:

Listening Prayer teaches someone to hear voices, receive impressions in their imagination, read events in life, and basically see anything and everything as God speaking propositional communication to you and about you.  All you have to do is learn to “listen”.  I’ve previously walked through all of Brad Jersak’s exegetical argument and shown that his entire argument from scripture isn’t even a house of cards; it’s a house of complete smoke and mirrors in which Jersak completely twists every single one of his main supporting biblical texts.  So in the end, if the major exegetical tenets of Brad Jersak’s teaching (and consequently the teaching of Lorie Martin, Ted Enns, or anyone else who pedals his ideas) are unbiblical (read “claiming that the Bible says something it actually does not”), then the whole biblical basis for the practice is completely nonexistent.  Secondly, if the practice is connecting with the spiritual realm (which it may not be – see Ez. 13:12 & 17), then Listening Prayer would be a form of divination/channeling that is covered up in Christian rhetoric.

I mean, if there is true propositional revelation coming from somewhere, and it’s not coming from God, then one has only one other option; the demonic realm.  So, I submit that if someone gains propositional information from listening prayer, then listening prayer is actually a form of divination.

I.E. it’s something bad dressed up to look like something good.

It seems that by allowing false doctrine to be taught to the wives and daughters under their vigilant watch, the men leading at Northview are allowing their women to be lead into false doctrine.

Now, I understand that some would respond “But you cannot expect us to filter through every book that is used for teaching or reading in our church!  We’d have to sort through, like hundreds of books a year!”  I get that.  I know that it’s difficult to keep tabs on all the various unbiblical ideas peddled in the church, and all the people who are theological 2nd and 3rd cousins to those who spread those unbiblical ideas.  It takes actual work to be a proper filter to that much content that tries to come into your church.

None the less, does not the scripture clearly address the elders of the church, saying:

1. “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.” – 1 Tim. 4:16.

2.  An elder “must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.” – Titus 1:9.

Why?

For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. Even one of their own prophets has said, “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.” – Titus 1:10-14.

One of the main jobs of the elders in the church is the proclamation of the truth of God’s word and inversely, the refutation of the twisting of God’s word.  That’s part of being an elder, and it’s not a job that many men would choose if they had the choice.

The wives and daughters in the church should be protected from this garbage, not left to “sort through it” on their own, or simply be deceived when their eldership/husbands passively sit by and do nothing.  Every church, and especially the big ones, needs men who are competent to teach, but also able to examine what’s coming into the church and willing to take the heat when they have to teach against things that people like.

So the question goes out to Northview MB Church:

“Where are your men?”

Get up brothers.  It’s time to start fulfilling your roles and protect the women in your house from false doctrine.

Northview has not usually been a haven for false doctrine, and it shouldn’t be now.

Until Next Time,

Lyndon “The Armchair Theologian” Unger

P.S. –  I know I’m neither in leadership nor membership at Northview, and I’m in no authoritative position to say anything about what they do.  I fully agree.  I do have the biblical commission to warn a brother in the Lord about something dangerous in their life though, and I’m only trying to fulfill the principle of Ezekiel 3:16-21 and 1 Timothy 1:6, and warn my brothers about sin/false doctrine.  Nobody in Northview has any reason to listen to a thing I say outside of whether or not I make a case upon the authoritative scriptures.  I believe that my other writing on the topic shows that Listening Prayer and the teaching of Brad Jersak is unbiblical and should be avoided by discerning Christians.  So, I speak up about something that I know is spiritually dangerous, and I do so for the sake of the brothers and sisters in the Lord at Northview in the only avenue I have at my disposal; this blog.

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36 thoughts on “Northview MB Church: Where are your men?

  1. Pingback: B.C. Mennonite Church Allowing Contemplative Spirituality to be Taught « Menno-lite

  2. Interesting read! Are you aware of the Krahn lawsuit? Same counsellors from the suit being the founders of Listening Prayer in Mission. Hmmm.

  3. See the Vancouver Province newspaper, Oct.13, 2006. Donna Krahn received listening prayer counselling from Elijah House in Canada. It went terribly wrong and the husband had to bring on a lawsuit. These same counsellors started Listening Prayer in BC. A friend suggested I should give them a try. Reading your information and the lawsuit was enough for me to say,”No way”.
    Keep up the good research.

    • WOW! I hadn’t heard of that. I’ll maybe do some research and check into that a little more. Thanks for the info Lori.

      Keep on searching the scriptures and checking things out by the word of God!

  4. You are a completely ignorant jerk. You are hoping people will gossip on your little sit here, not realizing that you yourself are denying what scripture teaches about the voice of God. It angers me that you would illicit some stranger’s rendition of some litigation that you have no idea about. Fine, deny that God speaks, but please do not attack people you dont know with suspicious facts you listen to from people randomly on the net.

    • Thanks for attempting to interact with me Chad.

      Is there something specific you’d like to talk about, like what the Bible teaches about the voice of God?

      Would you rather explain the litigation to me and straighten me out on that?

      If there’s something you can contribute to my confusion, I’m more than willing to listen. If you have any comments that progress beyond name-calling, I’ll give you an ear just like anyone else.

  5. Northview has reduced women to backbenchers as they are no longer allowed to be elders ,which I believe is against all MB doctrine. How can we be pastors but not elders? I’m not sure how they are getting away with this but as a woman who is tired of churches trying to stop women from the gifting God has given us I can only say why are we going backwards! My daughter attends Northview and was shocked to learn this and luckily she has the knowledge that God is above what men use to keep us back. When will they stop being threatened by us mere women? Another church I won’t attend. . . They need to read “why not women” by Lorne Cunningham the founder of YWAM.

    • Thanks for your comments equalwoman.

      As far as I know, I do believe that the official MB position on women and ministry is that the national conference doesn’t have a position on the issue, but it is the position of the individual church to decide where they stand on the issue. That may have changed in the past month or two, but the last time I checked that was the case.

      I am also fairly sure that the leadership at Northview are not threatened by women; they have taken the position they hold after extensive and serious biblical study.

      You’re free to disagree with them and I would empathize with your frustration, but I’d caution you against claiming to know why they’re doing what they’re doing.

      I’ve read Loren Cunningham’s book book and I’ve heard him speak on the topic.

      Have you read “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” by Wayne Grudem and John Piper?

    • Just writing to clarify a few things about the women’s issue in the church. First and foremost it needs to be clarified as to what it means to be equal as men and women in the church. I would like to appeal to the creation story and affirm that men and women are equal as they are both made in the image of God. This actually the basis on which we need to see equality in the church. It is based on our identity in Christ, rather than what we do as people, as that is an improper worldview. Secondly, from the way I understand it (not that the doctrinal statement of Northview) is that in 1 Timonthy chapter 2:8-14, Paul says that women should not be able to teach and remain in authority over men. This same wording is the way that Paul appeals to the role of eldership in the church. It is the teaching and authority that differs the elders in the church and the deacons in the church as we see described in 1 Timothy 3. So it is simple to come to the conclusion that Paul is saying that women should not be in eldership of the church. Many people would argue that this is a cultural appeal and therefore does not apply to us today. However, this is not true. Paul appeals to the created order, or saying that this is the way things ought to be, taking outside and beyond cultural standards. If we do take this passage as culturally relative and throw it out, that means that we would have to do the same for homosexuality and divorce; something I don’t think the church can nor will ever do. (see Romans 1:26 and Matthew 3:6) These two issues are also using the appeal to the natural order for giving reason to why they are not apart of what we do in the church today.

      I hope this makes sense and actually sheds light on the fact that men and women are equal in the church of Northview. This is the way I understand why they do what they do.

    • Thanks for your thoughts BigShooter.

      I would wholeheartedly agree that men and women are fully equal in the church, as far as having equality of standing and value.

      I would also agree that men and women do not have the same roles in the church, and these differences in church roles find their basis in the differences of creation-established roles.

      Equalwoman, I’m wondering if you’re currently pursuing the roles that God has called you to in the church? There are several, but how do you stand up against even 2?

      I’m wondering if you, like Lois and Eunice in 2 Tim 1:5, are teaching the gospel to the young ones around you and setting an example of sincere faith?

      I’m wondering if you, like the older woman spoken of in Titus 2:4-5, are teaching the younger women in your church “to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands”?

      I don’t know about you, but on that second one there’s a TRAGIC failure by the older women in almost every church I’ve ever been a part of. I know a ton of younger women that come from terrible homes and cannot find a Godly example of a wife and mother for the life of them.

      If the church is composed of men, women and children, then you have a responsibility to be teaching 2 of those 3 groups. If you’re fulfilling those roles faithfully, do you seriously have a bunch of spare time left over to be pursuing a pastorate as well?

      Honestly?

      • Can you please help me with that Titus verse? I mean, telling my wife to be ‘busy at home’ and ‘subject to your husband’ doesn’t go over well for me.

        Maybe she’s been too indoctrinated with the lame-stream-media and truly believes that she can do everything that a man can do. How silly of her to think that. I mean, God created man first, not woman. (1Tim 2:13) I am the head of the house, not the woman. She she know that there is nothing that she can teach a man (1Tim 2:12) – her job is only to teach the young impressionable children. But when I tell my wife to be silent in church (1 Cor. 14:34-35) she gives me the evil eye? I know I shouldn’t spend my strength on women (Prov 31:3) but I have to live with this woman!

        What am I to do? She genuinely thinks she is allowed to use her brain and skills to demonstrate that she is just as smart and capable as me and that she shouldn’t be subjugated? How can I prove to her once and for all that women were created for men, not the other way around (1Cor 11:8) Why can’t we go back to the 1940s patriarchal model where women knew their place in society?!

      • Sure Ralph. I’m guessing that you’re being sarcastic, but I’ll bite.

        I can help you with the Titus verse. Why are you telling your wife to be “busy at home” and “subject to your husband”?

        Titus 2:4-5 doesn’t tell you to do that, so I’m confused as to why you’re doing this.

      • Yes, I was being sarcastic.

        My point was to highlight all the ridiculous things the bible has to say about women in an effort to emphasis the patriarchal context in which the authors (men) wrote the bible. This was my meagre attempt to defend your attack on BigShooter.

        Just like we have collectively ‘evolved’ our position on divorce we should be willing to evolve our out-moded views of gender roles (eg: we recognize that women could also seek divorce and that divorce should be encouraged when safety is a concern – in direct violation of Matthew 19:3-9. Further, we allow people to remarry – in contrast to Jesus’ position in Luke 16:18)

        So obviously when Proverbs tells me to not waste my time and energy on women, I put this verse aside and recognize that this wasn’t written by enlightened people. Likewise, when Paul instructs the christian church not to allow women to speak in church, we also ignore that because it just isn’t practical nor constructive in the 21st century. Paul’s out moded thinking just wouldn’t work unless you lived in a secluded village like Bountiful.

        So yes, sarcasm.

        I’m curious how well it goes over when your wife teaches teenage girls that they should be ‘busy at home’ and ‘subject to their husband’. (Yes, I know that you’re not supposed to be teaching women this, you have to leave the older women to this dirty work).

        Anyway, I’m sure you’ll come back with some witty point about how I’ve missed the point and I’m in danger of going to hell. Let me have it.

        *sigh*

      • I hope I didn’t attack either BigShooter or Equalwoman (which is whom I imagine you were meaning to say).

        I’ll answer your questions in the order they were given:

        1.You said “I’m curious how well it goes over when your wife teaches teenage girls that they should be ‘busy at home’ and ‘subject to their husband’.”

        I’ll take that as a round-about form of a question. My wife doesn’t tell teenage girls to be “busy at home” and “subject to their husband”, since most teenage girls I know aren’t married with children. My wife attempts to learn that from the older women in the church and model that to the younger women. As believers who take the Bible on its own testimony (i.e. the author is God), we read it closely and attempt to apply it with precision.

        That’s probably not the answer you were looking for, but I imagine you won’t find ANY of the answers you’re looking for from me.

        Ralph, when you say “I put this verse aside and recognize that this wasn’t written by enlightened people” that basically shows how far apart we are in our approach to scripture.

        Instead of attacking you or having some fruitless drawn out battle, I would simply like to understand how consistent you are in your thinking. I’d like to ask you a handful of questions, if you’d like to respond. I’m sure you’ll think you know where this is headed, but I’m quite sure you’ll guess wrong.

        I’m curious if you believe that Jesus historically and bodily rose from the dead? If so, why?

  6. No need to single out Northview. There is plenty of heresy floating around and all you have to do is recognize the people who fall victims to it. New believers, marginalized members and members with little or now upbringing in the faith despite being born into Christian home are the 3 groups that I can think of. Unfortunately the church in this part of the world has a lot of member of the latter group in it today, ever since it became un-cool to take teenagers to church (kicking and screaming if need be).

    I thank God that I was born into a home that took seriously the commitments made when I was baptised as an infant (whooo heresy alarm there Mennoknight). Maybe we didn’t have the most warm and fuzzy times with our faith as a family, but daily our faith was part of our lives (prayer for every meal, church every Sunday and sometimes twice, catechism classes, Christian school, etc.).

    Todays idea of a Christian upbringing for our kids is to bring them to Sunday school from pre-school to maybe grade 7 and after that let the kids decide for themselves what they want to do on Sunday. Kid whines loud enough they stay home every Sunday; kid joins a sport that has Sunday practices, no problem, since sports are more important than your kid’s immortal destiny. Somehow they are supposed to just miraculously become good little Christians after sowing their wild oats and everything will be fine. REALLY???

    Conclusion: if you want to find people who have heretical ideas, you can in just about any church, just the odds are lower if the church and families in it actually are commited to training everyone in the faith, as the bible clearly teachs.

    BTW I’m a Northview member.

    Also equalwoman, knowin a little more about Northviews position of the issue you raise, they are not about “keeping women back”. To take hearsay and make statements attacking a church on a forum like this may be a rather poor choice. My understanding of the “incident’ is that it as more like a discussion led by a pastor about the topic. To my knowledge there is no official Northview policy on the topic. I don’t think that you would have any problem at all having a chat with one of Northviews pastors (for instance Bev Peters) to get clarification on this matter, since I admit that I was not privvy to the discussion. Given your use of victim language, I assume that you have some un-resolved issues in your life which I hope and pray that you will be able to work through.

    • No need to single out Northview?

      I fully agree. There’s spiritual cyanide out there everywhere. The only reason I mentioned Northview is because:

      a. I’m familiar with the church and am generally quite fond of Northview.

      b. I’m familiar with the idea that was being peddled there.

      I’m no more on a hunt against Northview than I am against the Crystal Cathedral, and I’ve posted an article about them too.

      As for your idea of what passes for a “Christian upbringing” these days, I’m pleased to say that I have little knowledge of that, and I don’t attend a church where that sort of nominalism is encouraged in any way. I go to efforts to bring the gospel to every individual and every family in my local church, and I labor to see the gospel part of everyone’s daily experience.

      I’m not sure what you were hoping to get going with the “heresy alarm” comment. I hope that entertained you as much as it did me!

  7. Funny you should mention Northview..I was a member when I was in my 20’s. Even back then there was some unbiblical things circulating, but not promoted by leadership. I think Northview is just another church that has grown so much that it is hard to keep track of everything that is being taught within the congregation. I think more accountability is necessary within small groups and programs that are running in a church, because deception is so easy to slip in unnoticed..I also think that things being promoted within the MB Conference do have an impact on what trickles down to the local church.

  8. Northview no longer allows women to be elders.
    Northview has a senior leadership team of men only.
    Northview has 1 woman pastor. (children’s)
    Northview no longer has a woman’s pastor.

    Northview have diminished a women’s role to supporting her husband.
    It’s so sad.

  9. Bev Peters, who was the “Womens Pastor” is no longer a pastor at Northview. She has been replaced by a director. Bev stepped down due to Northviews position on the role of Women.

    The lead pastor believes women should lead from behind their husband. The elders at Northview LOVE the lead pastor and will do as he directs. He is mach smarter than the elders and they bow to his wisdom.

    Northview has an Elder team and leadership team comprised COMPLETELY and only of men.

    In my world actions speak louder than words, and Northviews actions speak volumes.

    ps
    I think Northview women are having a clothing swap coming up soon if anyone wants to attend

    • Anonymous, I’m gathering that you disagree. I’d like to clarify for myself:

      1. Do you think Bev Peters rightly stepped down? What should she have done?

      2. Does the lead pastor believe that “women should lead from behind their husband”? I’m confused as to what that comment actually means. How does the lead pastor relate the husband of a woman to whether or not a woman can hold the biblical office of elder? (i.e I don’t understand what it means to “lead from BEHIND their husband)

      3. It’s apparently a bad thing that the church leadership is male. Can you explain WHY it’s a bad thing?

      It appears that, as far as you’ve communicated it to me, the actions and words of the leadership at Northview are actually falling in line with one another. It appears from what you wrote that though there may be many accusations against them, on this issue one cannot accuse them of hypocrisy.

      P.S. – Thanks for the news about the clothing swap! My wife is always interested in stuff like that!

      • 1.) What would you do mennoknight if the organization you represented didn’t respect you?

        2.) I think Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill explains how Women should support their husbands.

        “She [the wife] says, “I’ve never performed oral sex on my husband. I’ve refused to.” I said, “You need to go home and tell your husband that you’ve met Jesus and you’ve been studying the Bible, and that you’re convicted of a terrible sin in your life. And then you need to drop his trousers, and you need to serve your husband. And when he asks why, say, ‘Because I’m a repentant woman. God has changed my heart and I’m supposed to be a biblical wife.’” She says, “Really?” I said, “Yeah. First Peter 3 says if your husband is an unbeliever to serve him with deeds of kindness.” [Laughter from audience] How many men would agree, that is a deed of kindness. He doesn’t want tracts. Those won’t do anything. What we’re talking about here could really help.”

        3.) When all the leadership is male the ideas of #2 start to gain more weight.

        Yes the actions and words of Northview ARE falling in line with one another, and as a dad of 4 girls I prefer they go else somewhere where they learn the empowering message that Jesus has for them.

        • I am confused Anonymous.

          If an organization I represented didn’t respect me in some specific way that I dictate, I would leave, if and only if, that organization was built around me and for me. If the purpose of an organization isn’t to respect me in whatever way I deem that I want to be respected, then I am not upset when I don’t get what I’m not owed. If I am there for them, then I cannot rightly give them a list of “respect me in the following ways” demands. That is how it is in any organization under then sun.

          Secondly, since when does Mark Driscoll speak for Northview? Is he an elder there? A pastor? It seems absurd to suggest that Northview is wrong on an issue because some ding dong in another country says something stupid.

          What about non-stupid complimentarians like Al
          Mohler? How come HE doesn’t speak for Northview? I cannot really take you seriously because you’re not making serious arguments. Nobody I would consider serous pastors or theologians would suggest that complimentarianism = pressure to perform sexual acts one does not desire to perform.

          What does Northview say about the issue? Why are THEY wrong?

        • 1.) Bev Peters was at Northview for over 8 years. During most of this time the Church was Egalitarian. The Male lead pastor and male elder board 2 years ago changed the church to Complementation. Should she continue her role as Pastor of Women, while getting a bachelors degree that she can’t use, because men are the teachers?

          2.) The pastors of Northview have traveled to Mars Hill and believe Mark Driscoll is doing great work and preaching the Bible in black and white. You asked what does “women should lead from behind their husband” mean? It means support your husband no matter what he decides, God has given him this role.

        • I’m sad to hear that Northview was Egalitarian for such a long time, and it is highly regrettable that she was victimized by the previous pastors exegetical incompetence. Without knowing all that facts AT ALL, I imagine that in the clarification and Biblical alignment in doctrine, there is still more than plenty of opportunity for all women to contribute to the work of Northview outside the tiny office of pastor/elder. If Mrs. Peters is no longer a pastor/elder, there are still hundreds of women to whom she can minister, and hundreds of children, and hundreds of couples. I don’t know why a B.A. would be in vain…

          As for Driscoll, it is also sad to see the leadership following such a fellow. Maybe you could be a positive force there for proper Biblical change instead of running off…

          And one thing. Assuming that you are Egalitarian, I found it interesting that you took your 4 daughters to a different church. Was that their idea, or did you make the decision with your family and assume that they would submit to your leadership? I just found that comment ironic.

        • “or did you make the decision with your family and assume that they would submit to your leadership?”

          WOW. I can’t believe you just said that.

          We raise our kids the best way we can.

          I teach my girls to think for themselves – because I believe that will help them in their lives. Not because they should submit to me.

          I advise them against smoking – because it’s not healthy. Not because they should submit to me.

          I don’t take them into tempting situations, because they are young and impressionable. Not because they should submit to me.

          We as a family attend a church on Sunday that has equal roles for women and men. Right now 2 are also still involved in Northview youth because they have good friends there. The other 2 are not.

          Do I believe being E or C will keep you out of heaven? No, of couse not.
          I believe women have a powerful voice and point of view that needs to be heard.

          I personally don’t believe 20 or 30 men sitting around in a group making decisions for the 50% men and 50% women is the correct way to have church.

          I’ve seen too many women hurt recently by abusive men and the word “submit” doesn’t sit well with me.

        • So would not letting my 11 year old not have candy for breakfast be complimentarian? After all I’m asking them to submit :p

        • Well, more so than Egalitarian (obviously recognizing that the C & E debate doesn’t directly address children). Egalitarians that expect obedience (submission to the will of another in an appropriate sphere) expect that in spite of their theological trajectory.

          It always amuses me how Egalitarians use Galatians 3:28 as a principle to over-ride categorical distinctions between some groups (men and women) but not select others (parents & children, employees & employers, etc.) If there is no male nor female in Christ, why is there child and parent?

      • Interesting how you didn’t answer my question, but blew a lot of “offense” talk as a diversion.

        Did you decide on behalf of your family to change churches?

        1. None of your rhetorical example questions make your point.

        If your daughters started smoking, would you be angry that they were making an unhealthy decision or making a decision that YOU thought was unhealthy?

        What about if they chose to NOT think for themselves but instead actually choose to be complete idiots? Why is thinking for themselves a virtue? I know YOU think it’s a virtue, but isn’t that again expecting submission to your wisdom?

        This second point probably testifies against you regularly. I bet your kids do tons of stupid things (like all children, not because your kids are more or less stupid). Do you EVER get upset with them? If so, why?

        2. You said “I personally don’t believe 20 or 30 men sitting around in a group making decisions for the 50% men and 50% women is the correct way to have church.”

        Well, that’s nice and all, but your opinion is not as important as God’s opinion. What does the Bible say about Biblical eldership? I have a whole post that takes a comprehensive look at the biblical teaching on the issue here. Where am I wrong? Feel free to rip me up as hard as you’d like. If I’m wrong, I genuinely want to know.

        For the record, I am a complimentarian and I tremendously value women in the church. A majority of the work of the church isn’t done from the pulpit on Sunday morning, and women are often more gifted and more essential to a well-rounded church. The fact that Jesus doesn’t permit them to lead doesn’t mean that Jesus doesn’t give them an elevated place in his body.

        • To answer your question. My wife and I together decided to change churches.

          I think it was Paul who said women couldn’t lead, not Jesus.

        • Could you please delete all my comments from this topic please. I would appreciate it. Thank-You

      • So your wife and you decided to change churches and expected your daughters to submit to you. Not terribly consistent, but in a good way.

        I’m aware of who wrote 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 11 & 14. I’ve also read the gospel a few dozen times. Both Jesus and Paul said women cannot lead. We can just leave that one with you wondering how I could miss something so obvious.

        If you think your comments are incriminating, I can simply change your name to “anonymous”. I love to maintain any interesting and stimulating dialogue that gets on here. Nobody will track your comments back to you Mr. Anonymous.

  10. Mennoknight,

    Stop saying stupid things on your blog. You work at Columbia Bible College. A place where all of your stupid ideas on this blog would be ridiculed. Stop saying untrue and mean things about Mr. Jersak. Your blogs sucks. I read it for entertainment and a need to laugh!

    Good Times!

    • I see Otto (Jimmy is clearly a pseudonym, so I’ve decided to call you Otto…which is short for something. Can you guess? Let’s see how clever you are!). Thanks for your thoughts. I don’t suppose you could expand and straighten me out?

      What have I said that would be mocked by Columbia?

      What have I said about Brad Jersak that is untrue?

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